MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

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MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Guest on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 10:55 am

what a load of crock.
He's a hapless liberal government hell bent on building monuments to appease itself and trying to fund the capital expenditure from the gold prospectors and those associated with such an industry.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/regional/goldfields/a/26068980/miners-dirty-over-prospect-of-fees/

geez its hard not to get personal and not bag our pollies but for heavens sake..spare me lord.

mind u they have extended the term to 4 years--big deal--the area stays the same at 10ha. and the tonnage is a max of 1000T
dont forget u still have to rehab the area.

deary me ---u just love waking up in the morning to hear all the negative stuff in our world --it just doesnt get any better.
no wonder people love breaking the law.

regards
oneday

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by martinjsto on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 11:50 am

dont get me started on pollies Ray. 7 grand to dig every hole is a joke for upfront expenditure on something that may not be viable. the only hole that will be dug from july on is the one they are shoving all hard working Australians into. sometimes you have no choice but to call a spade a spade. if the politiciens are stupid greedy ar*e licking brown nosing arsholes then they deserve the title. seems most of ours fit that category in my experience from any dealings with them especially colon fartnett or our health minister kum hay-a-mess . the main issue is they take advice without researching or consultation with the people it will effect or any understanding the consequences of their actions and implement new laws and taxes based on this advice. yet they are re voted back in for another term by the apathetic west aussies. I guess they have to fund the new hole called Elizabeth keys somehow. oh thats right they took it from road funding....... jkihyig

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Tkinggold on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 4:27 pm

Dirty f@ckers, $7000 for a mining approval! I was converting one of my PL to a ML this year too pale
$600 ain't too bad for a 4 year POW , but $7000 is bloody ridiculous!

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Flying kiwi on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 4:31 pm

man that is a bit rough on a POW-P works out about $300 per A4 page wonder what that is per word. Mad not a bad gig if you can get it.
will definitely be letting DMP know my thoughts on this one

$7k to review a mining proposal is probably ok for a 1m oz show but cant lump the little fella in with that aswell

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Flying kiwi on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 4:33 pm

Prob be best to stay away from MLs Trent? not worth it I recon

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Bignuggs on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 5:54 pm

I'm a great believer in conspiracy theories.
This has been designed by the Barnett circus to protect the companies and get the little man out.
JMO

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Wedgetail on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 6:23 pm

Bignuggs,

There's very little on which you & I will ever agree, but you nailed it with that comment. It's been my suspicion for years. I could tell you heaps of examples that have "Get rid of small prospectors" stamped all over 'em. Beware the DMP is my advice. Bill Marmion, the latest, and worst of all Mines Ministers, has as his senior adviser a bloke that was formerly a senior adviser to head of the Environmental Protection Division. What does that tell you?

As an example. Get onto WAMEX and try using the search engine too look for data on things such as "nuggets, alluvial, dryblowing". Those terms used to be in the database. They ain't in there any more. They've been removed. Phone the DMP IT section and they'll tell you why.

BTW - Ray, the tonnage limit can be as high as 5000 tonnes and even more if you know how to do it.


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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Tkinggold on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 6:35 pm

Flying kiwi wrote:Prob be best to stay away from MLs Trent? not worth it I recon

I have to mate. Dmp aren't real keen on me setting up a hard rock processing plant on a PL.. 4ton per hour plant so will quickly reach my tonnage limit for a PL anyhow (digging it out that quick is my only problem) I have all the drill results proving the reefs I'm working so should get approved no worries. My missus can do most of the paperwork so that's all good.
$17 a hectare rent is a pain but this $7000 for a mining plan is very rough.

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Dozer on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 8:13 pm

The creature that is pushing this from the DMP is quoted in an article on ABC Goldfields
But the DMP's Dr Phil Gorey said if prospectors are organised with their applications they will only have to pay the new fee once.

Media player: "Space" to play, "M" to mute, "left" and "right" to seek.
Audio: Phil Gorey, executive director of environment at the Department of Mines and Petroleum explains the new fees for West Australian prospectors (ABC Rural)

He said in light of a new, four year POW allowing prospectors to map out where they are likely to explore over a longer period of time, the one POW and cost can cover the entire scope of work.

"I'd certainly be recommending to prospectors and explorers to really look at that horizon of one to four years."


Clearly this fella should be out here showing us all how to find gold, coz according to his statement we can predict what we are going to find before we dig and we only need to get organised. Tosser is right about getting organised, we need to get writing to pollies and reminding them that our votes can be given to people who support us, not to those who seek to extort us.

They also need to be asked what we get for our $600. Do we get anything that we don't get now for a POW?

Like TKing I was going to convert a small P to a M. That won't be happening now and I will just have to be a little more forgetful about how to calculate tonnages. Age does have its advantages!

Dozer


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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by martinjsto on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 8:43 pm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-29/phil-dmp-prospectors/6054422

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by martinjsto on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 8:54 pm

President of the Amalgamated prospectors leaseholders association Mike Lucas explains why West Australian prospectors are upset by new fees introduced by the DMP

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-29/apla-dmp-fees/6054410


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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Guest on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 9:02 pm

aren't we all glad we r part of APLA.

well we will see..

regards
oneday

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Dozer on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 5:23 am

Yes we will see whether APLA is successful over this.

They had forewarning of it, so perhaps they should be re-iterating there submission points, assuming they made a submission.

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by pilko on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 6:44 am

Firstly, for those who don't know, everytime you want to do some ground disturbing activity on a tenement you have to lodge a POW (programe of works). On that POW, which is controlled by the environment division at DMP, you have to draw maps, give locations and provide exact details of the type and size of excavations etc. For example...you would give a GPS co-ord as a centre point of activities and then go on to say 2 areas 20m x 50m x 1mdeep , 1 x 50m x 50m x 1m deep. You can also get away
with a "plus various sample cuts" as a bit of an ar*e coverer. Now once the POW is approved, you CANNOT deviate away from
what you have committed to in that POW. If you need to work outside the POW that you have committed to then you need to lodge another POW. You CANNOT just go and push 100m away...it's illegal. So....unless they are changing the whole system
the quotes from Phil Gorey are incorrect. When your working a lease, you don't have a crystal ball and you don't know where or if the gold is flowing. It is common to have to lodge several POW's for any one project. As an aside, a few years back, it used to be the case that you could ring the enviro's down in Kal, let them know you need to move in a direction, they would make a note in your file and all would be ok....the message was that let them know what your doing before doing it.

Let me say again, Phil Gorey has either lied and misled the public or is ill informed.

For all stakeholders, lodging several pow's per tenement is normal practice. This one move by the government will put many in the industry out of business. In essence, we can no longer do our job economically.

As for APLA:

It is on record that DMP will only recognize APLA as our industry representative.
It is on record that APLA has in the past made submissions to DMP on matters that affect prospectors.
It is on record that APLA's submissions have in the past been effective in giving prospectors exemption from fees. eg: MRF
It is on record that APLA DID NOT lodge a submission with regards to these new fees.
It is on record that APLA "didn't see any problems" with the new fees.

Whilst I am a supporter of APLA, the entire executive need to realise that whilst many members are metal detectorists for a few weeks a year, many of it's members make a living out of prospecting. When I pay my membership fee, I am paying for a representative body to protect and further my interests in the industry. When that body is negligent or derilict in it''s duty's
and can be proven to be so then there may well be consequences of their inaction.



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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Guest on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 7:55 am

i think this raises the point i made earlier regarding having at least 1 full time Paid execitive member that will act and explain to the Government the consequences of such taxing legislation that will only excite people into further pleading ignorant about the consequences and simply doing what they want. I supose one will argue that rules are there to be broken.

one would have thought that if they raised the area from 10 ha to 4 blocks of 10ha depending on the lease size then one might find an arguement for the POW_P and the new term of 4 years.

Its quite easy to disturb 10ha and dig a 1000t in a season let alone the other 3 years. Maybe a dig and rehab clause to proceed would surfice --

either way unless APLA get in there boots and all, then this is going to kick everyone in the proverbials coz as individuals we are inmaterial. The minister will answer your questions but certainly wont act on one individuals concern thus the group organisation is the only way to get it through ....

regards
oneday

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by pilko on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 9:46 am

when a pow is approved you agree to there being no more than 2ha open at any one time. You will never get 10ha full stop.
For example when apply for a small scale mining lease which is still 21 years etc etc, one of the conditions is that no more than
5ha can be disturbed.

In order to get your head around this you have to understand that it is the environmentalists that call the shots at the DMP.
For example, under the mining act you have a right as a tenement holder to dig down 50m....try doing that under a POW....not in this life time.

As far as tonnages go, they get away with creative maths. "Tonnages" are worked out from "volume"...so if one of the areas
of disturbance is mapped out as 50mx20mx1m, then the volume is 1000 cubic metres and DMP call that 1000tonnes which on a P
is already 20% of your tonnage gone. That is of course unless you use their 'bulking factor" (whatever that is) which is calculated at 1.8 unless you state otherwise and so you have now used 1800 tonnes.

Add to this that with each POW you have to submit a rehab report at the end.....no biggy.....but there is no provision in the report for you to state the tonnage. Therefore, if your POW was approved for 3000tonnes and you only used 500 because it was a duffer then too bad...in the eyes of the enviros you've used 3000t on that tenement.

Again I say, Phil Gorey from the DMP has either lied and misled the public or been ill advised.

pilko


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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Flying kiwi on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 1:53 pm

Pilko

im dirty that the fees are coming in and even more dirty that our APLA did not put in a submission Mad , which seems odd mike the president is putting up a fight in the media?

just to share my experience with POW applications I put one in last year to cover 2 x 10ha SPL, I marked up the entire tenements for disturbance and filed an additional tonnage application at the same time (for some reason approved by a different dept) went through sweet as and for 4 year duration. still tied to max 2ha open and total tonnage rehab requirements etc etc. but I can go dig anywhere on my leases, I guess they would be sus with doing that on a big 200ha PL

one m3 of dirt undisturbed solid in the ground can weigh 2 - 2.5t + depending on the soil, the 1.8 bulking is often refered to a "truck measure" ie once it has been dug out and fluffed up a bit.

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by pilko on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 3:18 pm

g'day Kiwi.

My gripe about tonnage is that a tonne is a tonne is a tonne......you can't control tonnage by volume.
Interesting about your 10ha spl's....and surprising....what did you put in the pow...10ha x 2inches??

pilko


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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Bignuggs on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 5:41 pm

Will I stir the pot and say that maybe APLA has become a toothless tiger. Not through their choosing but, by governments with an agenda which does need fighting.
Maybe APLA were strong many years ago but not now so it seems. The argument is, APLA is pointed more at "Detectorists". Even APLA can't tell you the true figures about that.
But it does seem, that the true meaning of APLA has disappeared somewhat. Make up ya own minds.
The fact remains, if this latest round of charges is allowed to proceed, I envisage the end to a hobby or a profession we enjoy.
It's all about money, and if you can admit it now, only big companies can supply it to a government and we are insignificant in the so called " big picture".

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Guest on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 6:02 pm

there are a lot of mining and resource companies that aren't worth the scrip that there name appears on.

A company that has a share price of $0.002 is worthless in my money and should be forced out of there misery..The problem is that these worthless companies hold the vast majority of gold bearing country, however what I have noticed is that the Vast majority of these companies are now letting people onto those once untouchable leases coz they now need the prospectors out there so they can write off there expenditure..These same companies as well as the small operators are being forced to pay a massive tax to try their luck in finding a resource....good luck if u come out ahead bad luck if u don't  and its this part of the equation that will be the nail in the coffin of every small time operator.

I don't think anyone would apply for an M unless u have very good results that assures u of say 800 to 1000 ozs min and  done your home work and set yahself up with a bloody good accountant and lawyer so u can nail every writeoff against any profit u might make.

Certainly more pressure has to be brought against the Mines Dept and the back stairs boys trying to influence a hapless minister who obviously has no idea.

regards
oneday


Last edited by oneday on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Guest on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 7:17 pm

have a listen--a brand new tax

https://soundcloud.com/abcwa/abc-goldfields-breakfast-apla-president-mike-lucas

regards
oneday

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by pilko on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 6:25 am

I actually think APLA is very much a "player" in the industry......or at least could be. There is no point trying to lobby over a civil cup of tea and a sweet biscuit. I understand that APLA is all volunteers and mostly recreational detectorists, that is not the problem.....ego is the problem...the executive need to listen to experienced people and act accordingly.

The Phil Gorey interview was absolute rubbish...he suggests we apply for a pow over a larger area etc etc....his own department
won't allow it...again he is either lying or doesn't know his own dept's process.

I am not into conspiricy theory's and the like, but I have little doubt that what we are seeing now is part of a well planned
strategy that has been several years in the making. You only need to go back a few years ago and a POW was in fact called
a LIMO..Low Impact Mining Operation......now why the name change???? I can assure you there is a reason and that will come out in due course. If my hunch is right and these fee's are part of an overall strategy then I wonder what else is to come.

I'm sure there are plenty of prospectors reading this thread that think that the fees don't and won't worry them.....think again.
What is the overall agenda? I believe that in the not too distant future any metal detecting will be confined to designated ...fossicking area's. Far fetched????? time will tell....but if WE don't stand up...APLA...you...me....and provide an aggressive
and professional resistence our "rights" will disappear.

pilko


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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Guest on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 6:59 am

lest we forget the EUREKA STOCKADE--

Pilko I can see and appreciate your imput.

I am a mere novice when it comes to prospecting, dry blowing and dealing with mining companies and finding enough gold to make any sort of living out of it however what this government is planning must be stopped and the minister and his advisor should be show the door.

bugger them.

regards
oneday

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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by Dozer on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 8:11 am

Name changes are all part of the burocratic game. It gives the appearance of something is being done, it allows money to be wasted on new letterheads and corporate branding, it stokes the egos of the people involved and best of all it is paid for by those messy little creatures who pay taxes and the like.
Sometimes there are no hidden agendas, just egos and job covering.
The minister is secure in his safe electoral seat, he is probably organising his directorships for when he becomes a member of the opposition.
He is not the target, the targets are the pollies who can be made to feel insecure in their seats. They will do the pressuring on the minister. Wendy Duncan in KAl would be a good place to start, as would Grylls in Pilbara. Both are Nationals and are thus can influence decisions, both are in mining electorates and both are not guaranteed of getting in next election. They get paid to work for us, the people of their electorates, let them earn their money.


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Re: MINERS & Prospectors dirty on new fees..

Post by albo on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 9:10 am

Well they will not get my next vote,also.
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