What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

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What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by rusty gates on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 10:45 pm

Hi everyone

My mate and I have just bought a lease each (they are adjoining), and while I was up on mine last week, I noticed tire tracks and evidence of a recent campsite.

There's a track that goes through both our leases and I know you can't stop people from travelling along them, but what's the best way to handle things if you do find someone camping on your lease??

Also, is it worth posting signs near the track, warning people that they are entering a lease...something that says 'You are entering private property...no camping, prospecting, etc'

Thank in advance for your help.

regards
Rusty...

rusty gates


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Nightjar on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 8:04 am

Unfortunately, unless you are on your lease 24/7 it is extremely difficult control.
However signs displaying "Private Lease P**/**** does keep the honest prospectors out.
Also it is advisable to give the Pastoralist a phonecall and introduce yourself, give him your rego numbers and ask about do's & don'ts.


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by rusty gates on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 8:17 am

Cheers Peter

I haven't found any old 'diggings' so either nobody has been wandering around the area with a detector, or there's no gold on the lease Sad

I think some signs might be a good idea.

regards
Rusty...

rusty gates


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by mada on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 3:17 pm

Seen a few sign's on P's lease last week in Magnet. " Private Lease P**/*** No Detecting".

At a guess that's about all you can do. Cant stop anybody passing through land and cant prove who they are as they may well be travelling backpackers etc.

Personally I would hide motion cameras near tracks. If you see some has been digging at least you can go back and look at the photos. What you do after that well that's up to you, if you have cold hard indisputable facts you can present them to the DMP.

mada


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by rusty gates on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 3:52 pm

Thanks mada

I know we can't be there all the time, but if people don't know it's a Lease, then a sign might just do the trick.

Listing the lease no, along with 'No Detecting, No Camping' should help inform 'would-be' wrongdoers,

Maybe it's a case of them not knowing it's a prospecting lease.

Rusty...

rusty gates


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by mada on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 4:58 pm

Yes sign would help for sure, but most people who go prospecting observe and obey, but then you have a few who just don't care, will raid leases and do whatever they hell they want. Pot luck really hopefully it wont be a problem for you.

mada


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Bignuggs on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 5:23 pm

mada wrote:Yes sign would help for sure, but most people who go prospecting observe and obey, but then you have a few who just don't care, will raid leases and do whatever they hell they want. Pot luck really hopefully it wont be a problem for you.

Yep, there will always be some who totally ignore the rules and stuff it for the rest of us. Things are getting difficult now without that trouble.

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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by au-fever on Sat 25 Nov 2017, 2:59 am

Putting up a sign is a good idea, warning its a lease and you can say "no detecting" but people can pass over and re pass it to get to crown land to prospect on, so long as they are not detecting on it they are in the clear and doing nothing wrong.

Comments like shoot and bury them and such are over the top, remember that this sort of thing has happened here, and their are still people missing in the goldfields who's families don't have answers, so maybe that comment should be withdrawn?

Remember also that you are the "lease holder" not the owner of the land, the land is "crown land" and still belongs to us all, your approach to individuals who you encounter on your lease should be diplomatic and the manner of your approach could mean the difference to them being compliant and leaving or being belligerent about it and returning once you have left.

If you approach people swearing and carrying on like people have done to me in the past then you will probably get a similar response, one time a mate and I stopped for lunch at a spot after scoping out the area, we were not detecting but just looking about and getting coordinates for future reference, some fool pulled up with his lady friend and started swearing and threatening us, he was politely told to piss off and get a life etc. etc., had he simply asked why we were there and what we were doing our reaction would have been very different.

au-fever


Last edited by au-fever on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total

au-fever


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by rusty gates on Sat 25 Nov 2017, 7:56 am

Hi au-fever

Thankyou for your comments.

I think some of the previous comments were made 'tongue in cheek', but I agree that by approaching people in a civil way, will not only educate them, but also lead to a positive outcome for everyone.

Rusty...

rusty gates


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by martinjsto on Sun 26 Nov 2017, 11:21 am

ive deleted the comments made "tongue in cheek" are still inappropriate for our forum. ok ok call me an old fart... thats ok. this is a family forum and as already mentioned some people are still looking for their loved ones here in WA so please think b4 posting.
cheers
ADMIN.

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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by pilko on Sun 26 Nov 2017, 3:00 pm

au-fever wrote:Putting up a sign is a good idea, warning its a lease and you can say "no detecting" but people can still camp on it and pass over it, so long as they are not fossicking on it in any way they are in the clear.

Comments like shoot and bury them and such are over the top, remember that this sort of thing has happened here, and their are still people missing in the goldfields who's families don't have answers, so maybe that comment should be withdrawn?

Remember also that you are the "lease holder" not the owner of the land, the land is "crown land" and still belongs to us all, your approach to individuals who you encounter on your lease should be diplomatic and the manner of your approach could mean the difference to them being compliant and leaving or being belligerent about it and returning once you have left.

If you approach people swearing and carrying on like people have done to me in the past then you will probably get a similar response, one time a mate and I stopped for lunch at a spot after scoping out the area, we were not detecting but just looking about and getting coordinates for future reference, some fool pulled up with his lady friend and started swearing and threatening us, he was politely told to piss off and get a life etc. etc., had he simply asked why we were there and what we were doing our reaction would have been very different.

au-fever

cool heads always prevail in the bush..not nitpicking but you do have a right to pass and re-pass with a wa miners right but you do not have a right to camp...permission to camp only comes with permission to prospect. Whilst I'm nitpicking...prospecting and fossicking are two very different things under the act and different rules apply....we are prospecting...not fossicking. My experience for what it's worth....signs do nothing..waste of time. Also...people almost ALWAYS know where they are...they don't just wander on by accident.

pilko


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Alan WA on Sun 26 Nov 2017, 8:06 pm

I think you can camp anywhere if you have the pastralist permission .
When ive seen people bipping where they are not sposed to i go up to them friendly like snd have a chat. I will suggest an area nearby ehere they won't get hasseled.
Quite often they have given me good advice as to what they have found in the area in years gone by.
Just my experience.

Alan WA


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by au-fever on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 3:05 am

pilko wrote:
au-fever wrote:Putting up a sign is a good idea, warning its a lease and you can say "no detecting" but people can still camp on it and pass over it, so long as they are not fossicking on it in any way they are in the clear.

Comments like shoot and bury them and such are over the top, remember that this sort of thing has happened here, and their are still people missing in the goldfields who's families don't have answers, so maybe that comment should be withdrawn?

Remember also that you are the "lease holder" not the owner of the land, the land is "crown land" and still belongs to us all, your approach to individuals who you encounter on your lease should be diplomatic and the manner of your approach could mean the difference to them being compliant and leaving or being belligerent about it and returning once you have left.

If you approach people swearing and carrying on like people have done to me in the past then you will probably get a similar response, one time a mate and I stopped for lunch at a spot after scoping out the area, we were not detecting but just looking about and getting coordinates for future reference, some fool pulled up with his lady friend and started swearing and threatening us, he was politely told to piss off and get a life etc. etc., had he simply asked why we were there and what we were doing our reaction would have been very different.

au-fever

cool heads always prevail in the bush..not nitpicking but you do have a right to pass and re-pass with a wa miners right but you do not have a right to camp...permission to camp only comes with permission to prospect. Whilst I'm nitpicking...prospecting and fossicking are two very different things under the act and different rules apply....we are prospecting...not fossicking. My experience for what it's worth....signs do nothing..waste of time. Also...people almost ALWAYS know where they are...they don't just wander on by accident.

I stand corrected, yes you have the right to pass and re pass over a mining lease to get to crown land to prospect on, but not to camp, (have amended that comment in my post) and thanks for pointing that out, when I wrote this I was thinking about leases in general and I have been bailed up by pastoral lease holders in the past who have told me that I could not camp on a pastoral lease even though it was crown land and not subject to any granted mining type lease, but of course you can and some pastoral lease holders will tell you this to try and get you to move on, your right most people know where they are and for what its worth its always better to be doing your activities legally simply because if someone appears and tries to bully you out and you know yourself that you are there legally and within your rights so you can stand your ground as some of these characters are just bluffing anyway.

au-fever

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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by pilko on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 6:57 am

Alan WA wrote:I think you can camp anywhere if you have the pastralist permission   .
When ive seen people bipping where they are not sposed to i go up to them friendly like snd have a chat. I will suggest an area nearby ehere they won't get hasseled.
Quite often they have given me good advice as to what they have found in the area in years gone by.
Just my experience.

HI Alan...nope..PLH has almost no say in it.

pilko


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Nightjar on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 5:27 pm

pilko wrote:

HI Alan...nope..PLH has almost no say in it.

No wonder there is so much agro between prospectors and pastoralists, have always struck up a relationship with the pastoralist and show them respect and they do in return.
Even with Darren. Laughing



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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by rusty gates on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 6:14 pm

I phoned the mines department today and asked about the dos and don'ts associated with a prospecting lease. They directed me to the publication 'Prospecting in WA'...here's an overview of what it says...sorry the post is quite 'wordy':

Prospecting in WA
Prospecting activities
Miner’s Right holders are authorised to carry out the following activities on Crown land NOT covered by a granted mining tenement:

prospect for minerals, which includes the use of a metal detector
conduct tests for minerals
undertake limited sampling using hand-held equipment and remove samples weighing up to 20 kilograms
mark out mining tenements
fossick for rocks and gemstones
camp for the purpose of prospecting.

Miner’s Rights do not authorise these activities on private land or reserved land, excepting common, mining or public utility reserves unless you have authority or permission to do so.

Anyone can drive on the tracks on pastoral land and tenements, while abiding by the abovementioned points.

You can prospect on:

unallocated or vacant Crown land not covered by a granted mining tenement
Crown land that is the subject of a pastoral lease, or lease for grazing and timber and is not covered by a granted mining tenement, provided prior notice is given to the lessee
mining tenements, provided you have written permission from the tenement holder
granted exploration licences, provided you have a Section 40E Permit. These permits provide access to nominated Crown land areas on granted exploration licences, described as graticular blocks. Permits are valid for three months and only allow the use of handheld tools.

Note: Mining tenement is the general term used in the Mining Act 1978 to refer to all granted leases and licences. Tenement application is the term used for a lease or licence not yet granted.

You cannot prospect on national parks, nature reserves, within town sites or other classified reserves such as cemeteries. A Permit to Enter is required to search for any mineral on private property (farm land). The permit can be issued by the department. Contact with the landowner should be made before entry.

Permission from the Native Title party is required to enter land where exclusive native title rights have been determined to exist. Protection is also given to Aboriginal heritage sites, and prospectors must not interfere with them. Large penalties and fines exist for breaches.

Get permission to access land
Mining tenements
If you plan to prospect on mining tenement, you must contact the tenement holder and obtain written permission.

Names and addresses of tenement holders can be found using the Tengraph mapping system or Mineral Titles Online.

It can be beneficial to include, as part of the request, some kind of formal written agreement that you and the tenement holder can both sign. Many mining companies are satisfied with this approach. Often the only condition a tenement holder requires is for the prospector to report the location of any gold finds. This information provides the tenement holder with spot indications of gold.

Good communication with the holder will improve and confirm relations between prospectors and tenement owners.

A Section 40E Permit can also be applied for over a granted exploration licence.


Pastoral leases
When prospecting on a pastoral lease, you must take all reasonable and practical steps to notify the pastoralist about where you plan to operate and for how long.

You can obtain the address, telephone and fax numbers and email address of pastoralists by contacting any of the Department of Mines, Industry Regulation and Safety's (DMIRS) Mining Registrar offices. This is the only authoritative source for this information and is only released under the terms of a Memorandum of Understanding between DMIRS and the Department of Lands.

Prospectors should communicate with pastoralists. The rights of the pastoralist are very important as they are legal occupiers of the land. Prospectors should abide by instructions about water supply for stock, firearms and dogs. Campsites should be kept clean, wear and tear on roads and tracks minimised, and fences and gates not damaged.

You may be liable for compensation for any damage caused to a pastoralist’s infrastructure, such as fences or roads.


Private land
A Permit to Enter is required to search for minerals on private property such as farmland. You can apply for the Permit using either Mineral Titles Online or Form 2 of the Mining Act 1978. Contact with the landowner should be made before entry.

Find out more about Private land provisions.

For a fee, private landowners addresses can be obtained from Landgate.

Operating without permission
Operating without proper permissions is illegal and an offence under the Mining Act 1978 – carrying heavy fines. Refer to Penalties for illegal prospecting. Only mining tenement holders have the right to remove and keep minerals.

Any gold or other minerals and gemstones found during unauthorised prospecting will be confiscated as it is considered stolen from the Crown, carrying penalties of up to $20,000. A liability also exists to rehabilitate any land damage and pay compensation for any loss or damage caused.

Fines and Penalties
Unauthorised mining in accordance with Section 155 of the Mining Act 1978 and attract a penalty:

For an individual of up to $150,000 and a further $15,000 for each day the offence continues.
For a body corporate of up to $300,000 and a further $30,000 for each day the offence continues.

There are more details on the mines dept website and I found the info very helpful...hope this helps.

Rusty...

rusty gates


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by pilko on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 6:31 pm

Hi Rusty Gates...

Pastoral leases
When prospecting on a pastoral lease, you must take all reasonable and practical steps to notify the pastoralist about where you plan to operate and for how long.

This part is actually incorrect. The DMIRS continually and conveniently get this section of the mining act wrong.
I keep on saying that it is always a good idea to make contact with the PLH because you may get lucky..they may be reasonable and you may all get along. But if you don't you need to know where you stand...I'm assuming you cut and pasted out of their info??? The 'take all resonable....' is ONLY with regards to passing and repassing withing 100m of significant infrastructure (Homestead) and 400m of wells etc. There is no obligation on you (as far as I am aware...and I don't know everything!) to contact the PLH....it is non of their business. Your 25 dollar miners right gives you equal and in some cases more rights than the PLH.

Anyway...there I go sounding all militant again.

pilko


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by rusty gates on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 6:50 pm

Hi Pilko

Yes, I did copy and paste the info from their website.

In the interests of establishing a rapport with the PLH, contacting them and outlining what you're doing and where you're going, would be a good thing....don't you think??

Rusty...

rusty gates


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Nightjar on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 6:47 am

rusty gates wrote:

In the interests of establishing a rapport with the PLH, contacting them and outlining what you're doing and where you're going, would be a good thing....don't you think??

Rusty...

That simple process is worth its weight in gold.
Have mentioned it here somewhere before, we were directed to an old shack by the pastoralist to camp in instead of swagging in the open. He dropped in for a chin wag a couple of times at beer-o-clock time with a carton on his shoulder. lweg






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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by pilko on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 7:01 am

Hi Rusty Gates...absolutely. But there is a big difference between what you are required to do and what you choose to do.

All I am doing is pointing out that the DMP is publishing incorrect info...this in turn confuses new chums and in the long term accepted practice can easily become law.

Peter, you are right, but I think times have changed. Back in the 70/80's pastoral stations were run like pastoral stations these days...not so much. More importantly, there were not so many people out prospecting....these day's there are thousands and I think this puts pressure on the land and people on it. Some PLH are now working together and I have seen near identical bogus legal documents coming from different PLH's. Have a look at the wardens court listings...these day's it is the PLH that are blanket objecting to tenement applications....trying to get access agreements in place. They will never do it legally but they will bluff the uninitiated. Many stations are now company run....many by mining companies and increasingly more by the Chinese....this means they have different agendas other than raising livestock. It's only my opinion...but the times have changed.

pilko


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Flouro on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 7:31 am

Hi Pliko,

You may be right in what you are saying but I had that erroneous document waved in my face last year and a piece of paper is worth a thousand words so somebody who is in the know who can show where it is written and quote these words should sort all this bullshite out...because who do you believe

We certainly let the plh have his way because didn't need the agro

Ron

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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Flouro on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 9:15 pm

Hi All,

Like Pilko has stated the pastoralist may only ask reasonable requests to prevent you from going about your legal business but you need to read it and interpret the rules for yourself by going to

www.dmp.wa.gov.au and go to the sub heading of

minerals and mining......prospectors and fossikers

Read all the relevant stuff for yourselves and save as so that you have a copy to show the stubborn ones out there

Cheers, Ron

Flouro


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by pilko on Thu 30 Nov 2017, 6:26 am

G'day Ron....that's not what I said. There is a section in the act that say's that we must obey reasonable requests..etc etc...but that is ONLY in regards to passing within 100m of significant infrastructure and 400m of bores etc. A PLH cannot tell you where to camp...tell you to bugger off 'because we are mustering' etc etc etc....your 25 buck miners right puts you on an equal footing.

All I am saying is that it is important to know what the rules are....then it's up to you what you do with it. ie: we're mustering here this week.....my response would be.."no worries..do you need a hand?" or if they are aggressive so and so's then my response will be along the lines off...'no probs, I'll just need you to keep your stock more than 100m away from where we are working because of safety..." bla bla bla. Keep in mind..we do it for a living and so we usually do not have time to sit around. Most of you guy's are out here for'fun' and so a few day's here and there is generally no biggy. I don't seek out confrontation...and I don't advise you do either...it's just good to know where you stand out here.

pilko


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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Wedgetail on Thu 30 Nov 2017, 8:05 am

Once again Pilko is right about the misuse of "notification to a PLH". He and I have discussed this matter at length. It is misused even by DMIRS.

I have now had three stoushes with PLH's on behalf of APLA members and won every one of them for two reasons. First, I know the law and second, they just make it up. Simple.

Best tactic if they insist on "playing not nice" and talking is at an end is to give them the phone numbers of the DMIRS Inspectors and tell them to take their case to them. Jump in your vehicle and drive off to where ya wanna prospect. On the other hand, be wary of getting the local constable in as they often don't know the Mining Act or The Pastoral Lands Act and they will often "short circuit" the dispute by telling YOU to "move on". The PLH can't move but you can os you get the short straw as you cannot disobey an order by a policeman. Its the easy way out for the police. However, it's often been said to me by the local bobbies that they're too busy sorting out "domestics" in Leonora etc to have the time to be driving out bush looking for prospectors and what they're doing!

Next - for leaseholders - don't put any signs up that display threats such as "you will be shot at and any survivors will be prosecuted". Several leaseholders have been dragged into court for that and they were prosecuted for "threatening behaviour". I find most prospectors will stay off your ground if they see a sign saying "Private Lease - number xxxxxx" etc. Such signs also help prospectors to know where they are and where your boundaries are. It all helps.

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Re: What would you do if you found someone on your lease??

Post by Wedgetail on Thu 30 Nov 2017, 8:19 am

Alan WA wrote:I think you can camp anywhere if you have the pastralist permission   .
When ive seen people bipping where they are not sposed to i go up to them friendly like snd have a chat. I will suggest an area nearby ehere they won't get hasseled.
Quite often they have given me good advice as to what they have found in the area in years gone by.
Just my experience.

Alan, you're correct. With permission from the PLH you can camp anywhere he indicates would be good. However, under the Caravan and Camping Act we are allowed to stay 3 days maximum just about anywhere. After that period, we must move on.

HTH

W

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